WARNING: FIRE and FLASH

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:10 pm

ATTENTION ALL!!!

With the increasing knowledge of the PSP flash, its contents, and capabilities, there is an understandingly strong urge by many to experiment.

This urge must be tempered by the following understanding:

0. Any modifications to flash have a very strong possibility of bricking the PSP.

1. There is currently NO known homebrew method to recover from a bad flash! Any bad flash MUST be assumed to be irreversible, including that which makes a bricked PSP.

2. Any person experimenting with flash MUST accept full responsibility for their own actions, including the possibility of bricking their PSP.

3. Any person developing and distributing app that alters flash MUST assume responsibility for bricking other's PSPs, and MUST make suitable warnings before any actions take place.

4. Any person distributing source code that alters flash MUST place warnings in the source code explaining the responsibilities of anyone using said source.

5. These forums and moderators cannot take responsibility for results of bad flashes. We are constantly warning people to take care and be sensible, but free will does prevail.

6. These forums and moderators have no control over development and distribution of any apps or source that are not in the source-code respository of ps2dev.org or pspdev.org. Anyone should exercise caution executing any apps (distributed in binary or source form) from unknown sources.

My own feeling is that some method to recover from bad flashes really should exist before anyone distributes apps or even source that modifies flash.

StriderA · Post by **StriderA** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:32 pm

This reminds me of the "Warning: Contents are hot." on the coffee cups. You know that it's just plain common sense, but you also know that if you don't place a disclaimer somewhere, someone will use this as an escape for their stupidity.

Sad really...

laxer3a · Post by **laxer3a** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:25 pm

I believe that :

- Appli modifying the flash should warn the user at run time with a dialog like : Are you fully understanding that... bla bla bla YES / NO.

- Homebrew appli should be packaged with a standard I/O module that filter the access to the IO at run time and use this module instead of directly using the API. (myprogram -> call ps2devIOOpen -> call sceIOOpen ...)

- A filter program on PC checks that the main homebrew ELF is only using this filter and do not call directly the IO routines from the PSP.

-The CRC/MD5 signature/"insert your favorite method here" of the filter module would be known and public, any tempered or modified filter would generate a different key and generate a warning.

So everybody could safely use their PSP with downloaded program from the internet if they follow these rules.

The only thing I am wondering is the ability to map system API at runtime to a program and do the call without going through the system function static mapping section. (like loadDLL instead of relying on the import section inside a windows exe)

Post by **mrbrown** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:28 pm

Was it really necessary to post this in every forum? It's not like folks aren't going to read the software forum.

Now the exploit forum is another thing entirely...

Post by **mrbrown** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:36 pm

laxer3a wrote:I believe that :

[Blah, blah, stuff irrelevant to the discussion]

What you described has nothing to do with apps that write to flash to modify it's contents, where that's the intention. Gorim's post is not talking about malware.

If everyone uses Vampires method of reassigning flash0 then it should be reasonably safe so long as people don't try to modify any system files. If you run something claiming to downgrade your PSP then you deserve what you'll get afterwards - a brick.

Really, I don't see what all the hubbub is about. You warn people to be careful when running code that could harm their flash. OK, there's not much else you can do.

laxer3a · Post by **laxer3a** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:53 pm

Hello,

1/ Sorry for disturbing with something that seems off-topic. (to you at least)
But it is an important matter to me, and it will benefit the whole community.

Some people do it (modify the flash) knowing that they do it, but malware could exist. I believe that it is NOT off-topic but closely related.

2/ Even if I do agree with beeing tough with people sometime (especially when they dont do their homerwork before talking or breaking the rules of the forum), could you try to be nicer with people when you talk to them !
So as I am so stupid, I will just shut up and do not post anymore... For people interested to talk with me, use PM.

Thank you Mr. Closer.

Regards,
Romain.

Post by **mrbrown** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 pm

I never said what you posted was off-topic, nor did I threaten to close the discussion. If you are that touchy about a straightforward response then you're on the wrong boards :).

Anyway, the subject at hand are apps that willingly modify flash and people who knowingly want these apps to modify their flash. You listed a bunch of restrictive methods that would do nothing but hinder these sorts of apps. Those methods would be more suitable for programs that weren't going to modify flash, as a way of provding a safety check to make sure that they didn't. In those circumstances, they don't make much sense at all. If you want to be anal about checking apps before running them on the PSP, then run them in PSPE or wait for someone else to test it.

I'm of the opinion that if people have been adequately warned about running software that could potentially damage their PSP there's no need to waste a bunch of threads or posts on it afterwards. It's just more of the idle discussion that we could do without, and it's usually brought about by folks who aren't actually developing anything for the PSP. *Ahem*

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:40 pm

mrbrown wrote:I'm of the opinion that if people have been adequately warned about running software that could potentially damage their PSP there's no need to waste a bunch of threads or posts on it afterwards.

Agreed 100%. The posts I made were an attempt to make a visible and more than adequate warning and leave it at that. But you have a point about the forum spamming...I am removing those...

laxer3a · Post by **laxer3a** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:49 pm

Hum... I admit that I may have went too far.

Still, stuff like

it's usually brought about by folks who aren't actually developing anything for the PSP. *Ahem*

is very nice... You can not avoid to talk to somebody without trying to provocate him, do you ?

That is EXACTLY what I was talking about beeing friendly.
You really feel good about writing that ? Feel better on your ego ? Good.
Believe me, people are making their opinion here.

If I believe it is something that must be talked about, its because it is a programmer COMMUNITY. Some people are joining everyday and do not have time to read all the thread since 8 weeks.(I did read all since I joined the forum on the last 7 weeks, ALL of it)

That's not because we are not all doing stuff like you or vampire that we do nothing on the PSP ( I spent the whole weekend to check how to convert efficiently the 65c816 instruction set into MIPS instruction set and how to build an efficient JIT for the snes emu, may be its going to get used, may be it will proove to be useless... I dont code just for coding but like to use my brain before going to write a bunch of code (especially for something as abstract as a JIT)

Gorim > I really apologize for messing up this thread.

Thanks you for your understanding.

Romain.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:57 pm

laxer3a wrote:Hum... I admit that I may have went too far.
Still, stuff like
it's usually brought about by folks who aren't actually developing anything for the PSP. *Ahem*
is very nice... You can not avoid to talk to somebody without trying to provocate him, do you ?

Well, Since I didn't know who mrbrown was referring to, and I really didn't think he was referring to you or me (especially since you were doing some good thread contribution), and since attitudes prevail on ps2dev, I more or less ignored it. Honestly, the people around here are a bit nicer than they appear on the forums.

Gorim > I really apologize for messing up this thread.
Thanks you for your understanding.

No biggy for me, but if the topic continues down this road I may split it out anyway into a separate thread.

Post by **ooPo** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:05 am

Wasn't there a different thread warning about the potential of malware accessing flash and bricking a psp? Strange that he'd miss that one since he read 'all' of the threads.

Still, it isn't far fetched to expect someone to get up to speed before they jump into a conversation. Its rather rude not to, in fact.

Post by **mrbrown** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:14 am

laxer3a,

The last statement that you quoted was not directed towards you or gorim. It was a cheap shot aimed at those who do post useless threads here. As you well know I've suddenly got the reputation for stifling threads, but if you have noticed those are the threads that lead to nowhere or that blatantly disregard the rules. All of the moderators are trying to keep the forums as noise-free as possible. Some of us are more agressive than others.

I hope you and I didn't get off to a bad start because of my blunt nature. I typically say things in a straightforward manner, and if it's a difference of opinion then I usually don't dance around the subject. Please understand that I was not trying to insult you, I was only stating my opinion on the matter w/ regards to locking down homebrew apps.

I hope that you stick around and do great things here.

Smiths · Post by **Smiths** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:51 am

I say if you're stupid enough to go modifying your flash when no recover method exists yet then you deserve any and all consequences you get.

If I were to program something that set the clock speed to 999, posted it anonymously and called it "Super SNES", then it's your own damn fault for running it.

It's the state of the "scene" now to cling to fast releases and 0-sec mentality.

And with clock speed changing and now firmware writing, that's just a bad policy.

It's why I believe in both source-code releasing and proper crediting; people assume more from a "name" than an anonymous upload.
You see something posted by Mirakichi, Osakana, ruka, etc. and you just assume there's nothing bad in the program. It's why we cite in the first place; building a reputation is a big factor in a community.

Currently the background changer authors (Vampire and DrEggman) will receive name and deserved respect since their firmware writing program has been shown to be safe if used properly.

However, to post every Tom/Dick/Harry program released, especially with firmware writing functions discovered, is just scary in every way imaginable.

All it takes is 1 malicious programmer and one stupid site... and it'll be brickbrickbrickbitchbitchbitch

laxer3a · Post by **laxer3a** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:04 am

Hello,

I definitely agree with everybody on the subjects. :-)

1/ Mr brown, I am not against the way you lock the threads.
Actually... I would be even more tough than that ! :-P
People release link to warez would be banned RIGHT AWAY.
(shoot the guy, not the pixel... :)

But stuff like "people doing nothing" when a situation is full of bad karma thingy ("[usless bla bla bla" and so on...), is not really friendly to me.
When then you read that kind of stuff, you believe its for you.
Actually after you posted that, my motivation was down for two days...
When I spend so much time and effort trying to make something, it really hurst people feelings.
(I dont know if you are aware but working hours in japan is like hell, and coming home I do program until 3 or 4AM and get a 5 hours sleep. Social life ? :P My GF is a really understanding person...)

Still I agree there is a lot of noise in the forum. I personnally would like to see less message. (How do I compile ? How do I write a pixel ?...)

2/Self responsability like writing to the PSP flash is also appropriate.
You want to mess up just for a fancy background and made yourself a brick ? Fine, I believe its user responsability !
Understand the risk is so easy...
Still, it would be good to put a warning if an appli does it. (like BootVideo changer or background image changer) (I believe the released stuff does it, dont want to try this kind of program, I have 2 PSP 1.0 and do want to kill them :P)

Actually I am wondering why a warning thread like this one had to be posted. It is ssoooooo well known. (Still Gorim intention were good, so its good I believe...)

3/Now comes the malware program, and I think its closely related, stuff like putting the cpu at 999 or the IO writing to the flash...
Nobody here agree it could be something good for the community ?
Even as somebody really knowing what I am doing, it still good to feel secure by having a little program doing the checks, and even more for people having less understanding of the PSP.
A 200$ brick is definitively not the kind of decorative stuff I would like to have at home.

I agree that someone could find the adress in RAM of the loaded module and does a direct execution based on the BIOS version.
(most likely that two boot will generate the same loaded adress for the same function)

Now,smith is totally right about reputation. (if the identity can be controlled :P)

It is not a personnal issue, because the only stuff I have launched is hello world, my own code and snes9x. Just thinking about everybody.
(is it that bad ? :P)