ooPo wrote:
> This issue will also no doubt be revisited when/if a dumping tool is released by a warez group.
Didn't take very long.
It has happened already (very visible on a number of websites, except for this one) - not a "WAREZ" group per-se, but apparently in preparation for a warez-like loader hack.
Can also be used for legal (fair use) ripping of UMDs you own (not a copyright violation)
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Moderators: Please revisit this already outdated policy (again).
In the age of the Internet, you can only keep your head-in-the-sand for a short time (in this case about a week ;-)
[commentary: my issue has nothing to do with the technical merit of this issue but the blatant, contradictory, and IMHO arbitrary stifling of free speech on a BBS that talks about ripping firmware and kernel memory dumps but selectively censors this simple/stupid topic]
The Rules Of The PSP Forums
To begin, these forums aren't a democracy. We do not have a bill of rights for its citizens. Ultimately the decision does not lie in the hands of anyone but a small few here. Do not presume that our discussion here is anything more than a polite gesture to get an idea of how people feel about an issue.
Further, the legal system of many developed nations in this world have confusing and contradictory ideas about what we do here. On top of that many of the users and admins on these forums have different ideas of what is right or wrong for any given issue. This is why we find it so hard to nail down a definate yes or no. This is also why we revisit issues from time to time - things change.
Still, one has to wonder why someone like yourself is harping not on the issue itself but instead you continue to feel personally slighted because we do not agree with your assessment of the issue at hand. I can only hope that someday you find it in yourself to understand that it really is because you've yet to present a convincing argument for your side.
In fact, the immediacy of your return to this topic could indicate that it was in fact you who released the tool itself.
But, I have no proof and it is ultimately unimportant. The tool is out there, so what do we do?
I remain of the opinion that the data itself can be studied, but we do not talk about where it was obtained. There are a few methods now to do so - it isn't unfair to assume someone is a legal owner of the data when they are disecting it... but I'd rather not give the bystanders hints on where they can find warez itself.
Further, the legal system of many developed nations in this world have confusing and contradictory ideas about what we do here. On top of that many of the users and admins on these forums have different ideas of what is right or wrong for any given issue. This is why we find it so hard to nail down a definate yes or no. This is also why we revisit issues from time to time - things change.
Still, one has to wonder why someone like yourself is harping not on the issue itself but instead you continue to feel personally slighted because we do not agree with your assessment of the issue at hand. I can only hope that someday you find it in yourself to understand that it really is because you've yet to present a convincing argument for your side.
In fact, the immediacy of your return to this topic could indicate that it was in fact you who released the tool itself.
But, I have no proof and it is ultimately unimportant. The tool is out there, so what do we do?
I remain of the opinion that the data itself can be studied, but we do not talk about where it was obtained. There are a few methods now to do so - it isn't unfair to assume someone is a legal owner of the data when they are disecting it... but I'd rather not give the bystanders hints on where they can find warez itself.
> In fact, the immediacy of your return to this topic could indicate that it was in fact you who released the tool itself.
Ok, perhaps out of line - but I will take it as a jest.
;->
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Consider the ramifications of a public program that does everything that is censored on this BBS. The claim that newbies can figure it out but warez writers can't is now moot.
For your consideration. As a moderator you have the power!
[FWIW: just got a PSP 1.0 - ripping lots of UMD discs now...]
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> so, what do we do?
Drop the censoring of UMD ripping / activation topic. Allow open source code to flow so legal use can continue.
Ok, perhaps out of line - but I will take it as a jest.
;->
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Consider the ramifications of a public program that does everything that is censored on this BBS. The claim that newbies can figure it out but warez writers can't is now moot.
For your consideration. As a moderator you have the power!
[FWIW: just got a PSP 1.0 - ripping lots of UMD discs now...]
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> so, what do we do?
Drop the censoring of UMD ripping / activation topic. Allow open source code to flow so legal use can continue.
Last edited by PspPet on Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
We realize these dumps have virtually zero use to homebrew and are thus even if there was legit use for them it is outside of our scope, in which case there is no reason not to stick firmly to our currently used rule?ooPo wrote: ...so, what do we do?
That's what I'd say at least, though I assume PspPet is going to try and disagree...
Shoot Pixels Not People!
Makeshift Development
Makeshift Development
Yeah, and I would go further and say we should further distance ourselves from anything to do with UMD dumping.
The kernel can be dumped, and anything that can be found on UMD can be found in the kernel or in flash.
Again, I don't advocate restricting any information found from reversing a UMD (unless it's related to ripping UMDs) just the methods and means of obtaining dumps.
The kernel can be dumped, and anything that can be found on UMD can be found in the kernel or in flash.
Again, I don't advocate restricting any information found from reversing a UMD (unless it's related to ripping UMDs) just the methods and means of obtaining dumps.
Final? commentary: At this point the issue is well past moot
Moderators on this board may decide to continue the censorship of the obvious solution of how to use a documented API (and 100% legal IMHO)
Heck, even the main proponent of censoring this information is heavily hinting at the solution.
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php? ... activating
(cough cough, wink wink, hint hint)
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My point has always been about how arbitrary censoring can hamper the ability to do free and legal things. I think this example proves my point. You are free to disagree.
If you make a rule like "talk about anything you want, but be sure not so use the word 'fish'", then don't be surprised when people question the arbitrary censoring of the word 'fish'.
When everyone else is talking about 'fish', and in ways useful for the goals of this project, it makes the arbitrary no 'fish' rule look out of place.
Fortunately the rules don't censor the *results* obtained by UMD ripping (like library entry points), only the procedure for obtaining the information. The results of such activity are everywhere. These results matter a lot more (for people disassembling or writing code). In comparison the UMD rip procedure (censored or not) is relatively unimportant and mostly moot.
All IMHO.
Moderators on this board may decide to continue the censorship of the obvious solution of how to use a documented API (and 100% legal IMHO)
Heck, even the main proponent of censoring this information is heavily hinting at the solution.
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php? ... activating
(cough cough, wink wink, hint hint)
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My point has always been about how arbitrary censoring can hamper the ability to do free and legal things. I think this example proves my point. You are free to disagree.
If you make a rule like "talk about anything you want, but be sure not so use the word 'fish'", then don't be surprised when people question the arbitrary censoring of the word 'fish'.
When everyone else is talking about 'fish', and in ways useful for the goals of this project, it makes the arbitrary no 'fish' rule look out of place.
Fortunately the rules don't censor the *results* obtained by UMD ripping (like library entry points), only the procedure for obtaining the information. The results of such activity are everywhere. These results matter a lot more (for people disassembling or writing code). In comparison the UMD rip procedure (censored or not) is relatively unimportant and mostly moot.
All IMHO.
You say fortunately, but that's really the crux of the whole solution. I'm actually amazed you haven't picked up on that yet.
Here's a blunter statement: We're all for FREE INFORMATION as long as it does not lead to FREE GAMES.
Here's a clarifying statement about what you perceive as inconsistent rules application: Firmware dumps require PSP hardware to be useful. UMD dumps do not. There's a distinct difference. That's why we give info one obtaining one, but not the other.
We could just ban all talk of UMD data, but we haven't and won't... this is a happy medium that tends to please most people involved in the issue. It may be stricter than the law, but... we try to follow the spirit of the law, not the letter itself.
Anyway, you're the only one still troubled by the rules as is... or at least the only one who cares enough to even bother saying anything. You even almost managed to articulate a point - almost. You had to slide back into 'CENSORSHIP BAD!!', though. Tsk.
Your opinion has been stated and noted. Unless you have anything new to add, please allow others to state their opinions.
Here's a blunter statement: We're all for FREE INFORMATION as long as it does not lead to FREE GAMES.
Here's a clarifying statement about what you perceive as inconsistent rules application: Firmware dumps require PSP hardware to be useful. UMD dumps do not. There's a distinct difference. That's why we give info one obtaining one, but not the other.
We could just ban all talk of UMD data, but we haven't and won't... this is a happy medium that tends to please most people involved in the issue. It may be stricter than the law, but... we try to follow the spirit of the law, not the letter itself.
Anyway, you're the only one still troubled by the rules as is... or at least the only one who cares enough to even bother saying anything. You even almost managed to articulate a point - almost. You had to slide back into 'CENSORSHIP BAD!!', though. Tsk.
Your opinion has been stated and noted. Unless you have anything new to add, please allow others to state their opinions.
[since nobody else appears to want to argue the point ;-> -- here's another inconsistency]
> ...Unless you have anything new to add
FWIW: The new SDK includes a detailed discussion of how to use the BANNED API to access/rip your own UMD.
As mentioned this issue is well past moot. I will continue to point out the contradictions as they become more absurd.
Please feel free to rationalize the difference between banning the discussion of (a) an API that can be used to rip UMDs content and not banning (b) an API that can be used to rip UMDs content ;->
> ...Unless you have anything new to add
FWIW: The new SDK includes a detailed discussion of how to use the BANNED API to access/rip your own UMD.
As mentioned this issue is well past moot. I will continue to point out the contradictions as they become more absurd.
Please feel free to rationalize the difference between banning the discussion of (a) an API that can be used to rip UMDs content and not banning (b) an API that can be used to rip UMDs content ;->
The UMD api might even be really useful for homebrew by using it to stop it from spinning, as it appears that the UMD starts spinning when you launch an executable from memory stick, reducing battery life.
And psppet's last sentence makes more sense as:
And psppet's last sentence makes more sense as:
Please feel free to rationalize the difference between banning (a) the discussion of an API that can be used to rip UMDs content and not banning (b) an API that can be used to rip UMDs content ;->
PspPet, I have two words: Stuff it.
Now, if you're still reading... what the hell do you want from us?
Please articulate a point instead of playing the martyr.
Dredging up moot points in order to get attention is rude. If you even had one more person who even remotely cared about the issue then I could lend it weight.
Are you looking for a pat on the head? A hero cookie? Does this keep you awake at night? Are you secretly in love with Drakonite?
Please tell us. WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Now, if you're still reading... what the hell do you want from us?
Please articulate a point instead of playing the martyr.
Dredging up moot points in order to get attention is rude. If you even had one more person who even remotely cared about the issue then I could lend it weight.
Are you looking for a pat on the head? A hero cookie? Does this keep you awake at night? Are you secretly in love with Drakonite?
Please tell us. WHAT DO YOU WANT?
PspPet, the rule about umd was there initially so people didn't write disc dumpers as we aim to discourage piracy on this board.
Yes, UMD functions were included in the SDK as it aims to be complete and provide access to all the PSP's APIs.
There are legitimate uses of UMD APIs, please drop this before you get banned for stirring up shit.
Yes maybe the rule should be reviewed, it most likely will be when the lot of us aren't busy working on stuff so people can acutally dev on their PSPs.
Yes, UMD functions were included in the SDK as it aims to be complete and provide access to all the PSP's APIs.
There are legitimate uses of UMD APIs, please drop this before you get banned for stirring up shit.
Yes maybe the rule should be reviewed, it most likely will be when the lot of us aren't busy working on stuff so people can acutally dev on their PSPs.
> PspPet, I have two words: Stuff it.
> Now, if you're still reading... what the hell do you want from us?
If you are asking -- I will politely request you not resort to personal attacks.
If you read my posts, I have disagreements with the policy, but have not insulted or made false claims on any person.
Attacking people personally is very inappropriate IMHO, and generally cuts off debate on the real topic.
As to the UMD topic, it has been beaten to death. I see big inconsistencies and absurdities. The policy appears to be intractable and dissenting opinions are shouted down.
End of discussion.
> Now, if you're still reading... what the hell do you want from us?
If you are asking -- I will politely request you not resort to personal attacks.
If you read my posts, I have disagreements with the policy, but have not insulted or made false claims on any person.
Attacking people personally is very inappropriate IMHO, and generally cuts off debate on the real topic.
As to the UMD topic, it has been beaten to death. I see big inconsistencies and absurdities. The policy appears to be intractable and dissenting opinions are shouted down.
End of discussion.
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Guest
Oopo is right, I saw no personal attacks, just an attack. He told you to stuff it, but he didn't make any aspersions on you or your character.PspPet wrote: I will politely request you not resort to personal attacks.
If you read my posts, I have disagreements with the policy, but have not insulted or made false claims on any person.
Inconsistancies and absurdities in PS2DEV policy ? *shock*As to the UMD topic, it has been beaten to death. I see big inconsistencies and absurdities. The policy appears to be intractable and dissenting opinions are shouted down.
If you read back, probably in this same thread, you see me mentioning many myself. No one shouted me down (perhaps out of fear I would write a novel-length rebuttal, but lets not go there...) but neither were my concerns necessarily addressed. You know what ? I had no expectation they would or should be, because I was but one person expressing them and alot of things are decided by consensus. I made my point and people either found value in it, or not enuf.
Policy is made by consensus based on goals and values. It isn't easy, and often things look inconsistant because you don't see the full justification behind it, or what was precautionary at one time eventually becomes outdated.
Regardless, the important thing to pointing things out and suggesting change is in the approach used.
But there will never be pleasing everybody. If you don't get what you want, well, deal with it.
Hi all !!
I'll try to expose my opinion here, as I don't agree with everything about the policy of ps2dev (about umd rips and "piracy").
1st of all I have to say I understand why people here are so "jumpy" about piracy, as the phenomena is never good.
But there is one thing that bothers me here: by excluding subjects about umd rips on these forums, you totally support Sony, and I don't think Sony need support, as all they try to do is prevent us from programming on the psp.
What I mean, is that when all the latest games will check for the 1.52 firmware, the bye bye all of this, no more use for the pspsdk and all the work that was done for it. The only way to play new games by then will be using cracked umd rips. So ok, this is piracy, but piracy is a wide subject. From what I know, reverse engineering is piracy. So pspsdk is based on knowledge which comes from piracy.
I'll add that here (in France) the law is clear, you can make a backup copy of every piece of software you own. Including umd games.
So if someone honest wants to play homebrew, and recent games, without owning 2 psps, he'll have to buy the original game, put it in a secured trunk somewhere in his room, without opening it to be able to sell and make some more profit... And go download the cracked version on the net. This will be totally legal activities.
On top of that, I don't really think this will have any effect on Sony's policy. They will always fight homebrew, so they will lock our games as soon as they can, whatever happens to those umd rips.
I'll try to expose my opinion here, as I don't agree with everything about the policy of ps2dev (about umd rips and "piracy").
1st of all I have to say I understand why people here are so "jumpy" about piracy, as the phenomena is never good.
But there is one thing that bothers me here: by excluding subjects about umd rips on these forums, you totally support Sony, and I don't think Sony need support, as all they try to do is prevent us from programming on the psp.
What I mean, is that when all the latest games will check for the 1.52 firmware, the bye bye all of this, no more use for the pspsdk and all the work that was done for it. The only way to play new games by then will be using cracked umd rips. So ok, this is piracy, but piracy is a wide subject. From what I know, reverse engineering is piracy. So pspsdk is based on knowledge which comes from piracy.
I'll add that here (in France) the law is clear, you can make a backup copy of every piece of software you own. Including umd games.
So if someone honest wants to play homebrew, and recent games, without owning 2 psps, he'll have to buy the original game, put it in a secured trunk somewhere in his room, without opening it to be able to sell and make some more profit... And go download the cracked version on the net. This will be totally legal activities.
On top of that, I don't really think this will have any effect on Sony's policy. They will always fight homebrew, so they will lock our games as soon as they can, whatever happens to those umd rips.
The only things preventing you programming on the psp are lack of skill, intelligence and motivation. You've stumbled into the Temple of Apollo and yet you piss on the Oracle.But there is one thing that bothers me here: by excluding subjects about umd rips on these forums, you totally support Sony, and I don't think Sony need support, as all they try to do is prevent us from programming on the psp.
I don't believe that only legal owners of the UMDs will download the games, so every information related to dumping UMDs or even starting it from memory stick will support illegal activities, so I think the rule not to discuss how to make UMD dumps, is right. And if you need it for reverse engineering, you should have the knowledge to figure it out yourself, but don't give the knowledge to crackers.matkeupon wrote: So if someone honest wants to play homebrew, and recent games, without owning 2 psps, he'll have to buy the original game, put it in a secured trunk somewhere in his room, without opening it to be able to sell and make some more profit... And go download the cracked version on the net. This will be totally legal activities.
Sony doesn't fight homebrew, for PS2 they even support it with the LinuxKit and I know that they monitor this forum. If they want to fight homebrew, I think it would be easy for them to close this forum. They just want to prevent cracking games, because this would impact their profit. Homebrew could help to increase their profit.matkeupon wrote: On top of that, I don't really think this will have any effect on Sony's policy. They will always fight homebrew, so they will lock our games as soon as they can, whatever happens to those umd rips.
Well, rinco, sometimes you should get some informations instead of flaming people for nothing. If you read my post, you would have seen that I didn't attack nor piss on anyone.
Check some gp32 forums and you'll see I know how to program, and be patient until the end of the month and you'll be able to try my SmashGp game 5still have to find another name tho). So don't attack me, I didn't attack you nor your friends.
What I meant in my post, was that it is useless to ban people for that. Sony won't close this forum because of some umd specific code, they would have closed it before if they could.
About Sony supporting homebrew, I think I won't be the only one to disagree. I'd say Sony supports homebrew as long as they can make money around it (remember the yaroze psx). If Sony wanted to support homebrew and fight hackers, they would offer to sign applications (after having checked them, of course) like the Zodiac.
Check some gp32 forums and you'll see I know how to program, and be patient until the end of the month and you'll be able to try my SmashGp game 5still have to find another name tho). So don't attack me, I didn't attack you nor your friends.
What I meant in my post, was that it is useless to ban people for that. Sony won't close this forum because of some umd specific code, they would have closed it before if they could.
About Sony supporting homebrew, I think I won't be the only one to disagree. I'd say Sony supports homebrew as long as they can make money around it (remember the yaroze psx). If Sony wanted to support homebrew and fight hackers, they would offer to sign applications (after having checked them, of course) like the Zodiac.
You want to play backups which might be legal in your country. If you got your "informations" you would know this website is hosted in Australia, where it is not legal (at least for anything which has copyright protection). It's even in the wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_copyright_lawI'll add that here (in France) the law is clear, you can make a backup copy of every piece of software you own. Including umd games.
I looked up your game SuperMarioCopy (http://matkeupon.gp32z.com/smash.html). Do your backup laws allow you to copy and redistribute images from games made by Sega and Nintendo?
Last edited by rinco on Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well, I never asked anyone actually. But, well, I'm not in jail !!!!
The important thing is to not make any profit, and also to not degrade the characters by any way. So even if Nintendo attacks me, they won't get much money from me. So I'm not worried.
Anyways, the way you answer to posts is really harsh I think. I don't know what happened to you, but I'm certainly not the reason. So buy a punching ball or whatever.
The important thing is to not make any profit, and also to not degrade the characters by any way. So even if Nintendo attacks me, they won't get much money from me. So I'm not worried.
Anyways, the way you answer to posts is really harsh I think. I don't know what happened to you, but I'm certainly not the reason. So buy a punching ball or whatever.