PSP needs a keyboard or touch screen

[edepot]

I know this post may seem long and out of topic in this forum, but try to bear with it, as
it is related to the PSP in the end.

The Nintendo DS seems underwhelming in its processing power, graphics, and display size,
but it does get a few things right, especially the touch screen and port expansion.
If you follow the homebrew programming projects on the DS you will find that the
majority of the people have purchased something called an R4 (updated to support
other languages including english), which is basically a DS cartridge with a slot
allowing you to insert a microSD (which is available up
to 8GB now). This basically turns the DS into a PSP with a Memory Stick slot.

By the way, did you know that you can purchase a very cheap ($5) adapter that allows
you to use microSD as a Memory Stick Pro Duo? Hard to believe but it actually works,
so you can now get 8GB on your PSP without waiting for it to be made.

But lets get back on topic. The DS supports games up to 256MB, and all the games
released so far are 128MB, so it still has some life for many years. The touch screen and
folding design (like a laptop) is what saved it in the end though. The touch screen is
actually a VERY useful feature on a portable. You can use it like a mouse on PCs, so
all those Starcraft and Simulation PC games work on the DS naturally. If you can live with
slow processors and 4MB of main memory it is a nice piece of machinery, which you can
expand.

The DS has two slots, (Called slot 1 and 2). The slot 1 holds the DS cartridge (R4 with
microSD). Unlike the PSP you just copy files onto the microSD (using USB adapter on
a PC) and you have just added programs, games, AND flashed the cartridge to the
latest "firmware". Slot 2 is supposed to hold GBA cartridges, but on the DS it usually
functions like an expansion port (think the USB port on the PSP). So what people have
done is purchase expansion carts that has many functions (an extra 32MB to match the PSP,
rumble support, and others) 3 in 1. You can even turn the DS into a mouse by attaching a
mouse to the second slot (but you end up moving the DS instead of a separate mouse)
The DS has its share of emulators (like SNES and
Genesis), but cannot handle high powered ones like PS1 and N64. So the only thing
differing it from a PSP is the touch screen substituted for the analog nub (plus underpowered
chips). Having a second screen is not important, but because it is there, you can use the
bottom touch screen as a virtual board, so it can function just like mini-laptop. In fact because
of this Nintendo actually advanced the more useful next generation design before the PSP.
The PSP can catch up by simply layering a sticky touch sensitive screen, as this feature
is very very important in future mobile devices (besides virtual projection goggles of course).
Even the iPhone includes it instead of a keyboard. It shouldn't be too difficult to hack up
a touch sensitive layer with a sticky layer to the PSP screen. Another nice feature would be
motion xyz detection like the sixaxis (which the DS can do via the slot 2), but I think Sony already
has some patent to glue the PSP to the sixaxis.

Technology is kind of slow these days but at least it is headed in the direction. The PSP2 (2000)
actually moved a little too slow. The TV output and usb cable for charging is nice but it did not
support high pixel displays, nor a touch screen or sixaxis, and 2 plus years later still no official
keyboard support. It might even take longer for the inclusion of cell phone-like and webserver capabilities.
Maybe iPhone will get there first but they would need powerful 3D processors to compete with Sony.
Now that the PSP (first version) has opened up with full custom os support, it should be very
soon that future PCs will start looking like it. You get to take it with you or stick it into
the big screen (with 1080p support). Which is why virtual projection glasses are needed for on
the go 1080p, else you are stuck with a small display.
The hardrive will be a memory stick or many of them (maybe multiple M2 slots). A fold-up design for protection.
The PC world can probably do it but they don't have the hardware design and miniturization skills of game
hardware companies like Sony (not the least ability to drop the price of the gadget to $200 via games support).
But even Sony makes mistakes (a USB port in client mode? locking out ability to connect multiple USB client devices).

But at least the homebrew programmers are making headway. If only the PSP can be programmed on directly
via a virtual keyboard or even a real one. Maybe a compiler running natively on the PSP's MIPS R4000,
cranking out PBP's, or maybe .bin or .exe like executable formats, and a popular windowing GUI or
some next generation GUI. Maybe someone will finally make a pointing device attached to your fingers
that detects motion so you can type virtually or function like a wii pointer. At least the DS got
something right with the touch screen. If not its very difficult to
do many complex things (like a PC with keyboard and mouse support). Maybe Google's gPhone might have
some of the features (they need to support various apps), but I don't know if they have the hardware experience to
pull it off and ability of using razor and blades model to keep the cost down.

So after this long post, does anyone know how difficult is it to add a touch screen layer to a
PSP to function like a mouse? Or maybe on the back of the PSP which you use your right or
left middle finger to move it (like those pads on laptops). If not the Sony's sliding down keyboard
mini computer model (VAIO UX) has a nice keyboard, but attaching it to the PSP is difficult.

Here are some PSP games: http://www.edepot.com/game.html

[Art]

Wow, that was a ramble... Here's another:

By the way, did you know that you can purchase a very cheap ($5) adapter that allows
you to use microSD as a Memory Stick Pro Duo? Hard to believe but it actually works,
so you can now get 8GB on your PSP without waiting for it to be made.

Not hard to believe at all, but, Where? I will get one immediately.

does anyone know how difficult is it to add a touch screen layer to a
PSP to function like a mouse?

Well you could have asked that question with just the last paragraph so that around 90%
more people will read it, but yes it is doable both ways.
I have come close to ravaging one of those universal touch screen remotes
for the touch screen. It won't work like a mouse, but rather provide a number
of see through buttons that could work in a PSP program as it does with the
remote.

As a matter of fact I did more than thought about it. I did destroy one of the
remotes to determine that I could use the touch screen, but didn't go ahead with
the project for a few reasons.
A. Ugliness (Sony would need to make a proper one for anything that looked decent.
B. Power supply (it's going to need a microcontroller circuit to read the switches and send
info via serial to PSP which requires an external power pack, or wire tap
to PSP power.
C. I can make it, but noone else will. (any software for this ugly contraption
would need to be produced by myself, and would prove useless to anyone else)

.... so I try to stick to somewhat lighter hardware mods.
Art.

ps.. BTW, I DID go ahead with a similar Keypad project before pikey was done:
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72405
It suffered from EXACTLY the same problem I describe above.
Ugliness, needed external power, AFAIK noone else made one, so no software
was released to support it.

[jimparis]

A company has made a resistive touchscreen apparently shaped for the PSP:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=8448.
Adding a microcontroller circuit to interface it wouldn't be difficult. It could be powered by and interface with the HPRM port (or USB port if you implement a host controller).

[Art]

Interesting.. they mustn't be selling like hotcakes if noone has done
anything with them.

That should interface straight to the analogue controller port with no extra hardware,
considering the analogue controller would no longer be needed.

I still don't see it being a very neat solution until Sony do it though.
Forgive me f it sounds like I work for them.

[J.F.]

Removing the IRDA port from the slim was the worst thing Sony has done. Now you no longer have the option of using an IR keyboard (I have a Palm IR keyboard I use with my fat PSP).

[groepaz]

Removing the IRDA port from the slim was the worst thing Sony has done.

you mean removing a port that no official software supports and in turn adding another (tv out) that all software can use out of the box was the worst thing they could do?

i don't think so :)

[Fanjita]

Of course the aim of piKey was to provide a framework into which you could easily slot input plugins for all manner of different hardware, feeding into a (hopefully) widely-adopted set of output plugins.

I'm keen to get piKey back up to speed again, though it would be interesting to hear what you guys think would be most useful.

[J.F.]

Removing the IRDA port from the slim was the worst thing Sony has done.

you mean removing a port that no official software supports and in turn adding another (tv out) that all software can use out of the box was the worst thing they could do?

i don't think so :)

Maybe you don't, but many others do. :)

Sony has a history of shipping a console with a cool connector they don't use, and then wind up discarding later. Like the FireWire port on the PS2.

Sony might not use the IRDA port, but it's used by a TON of homebrew folks. We have programs that use it as a remote control, programs that access your cellular phone, programs that transfer data between PSPs, and many programs now support IR keyboards. Everything from Quake to IRC apps are using an IR keyboard. Nearly every emulator supports IR keyboards. Most net oriented apps as well. It's the best non-Sony supported feature of the PSP.

[Art]

Since there's no remote fo rthe PSP slim, it looks like they've removed
the serial port as well :(

[groepaz]

Sony might not use the IRDA port, but it's used by a TON of homebrew folks. We have programs that use it as a remote control, programs that access your cellular phone, programs that transfer data between PSPs, and many programs now support IR keyboards. Everything from Quake to IRC apps are using an IR keyboard. Nearly every emulator supports IR keyboards. Most net oriented apps as well. It's the best non-Sony supported feature of the PSP.

i know that all that stuff exist, and i still think its pointless :) the thought alone of sitting on the train and fiddling with an ir keyboard and the psp makes me giggle =P

on top of that, a tv-out was THE feature i was missing from day one :=)

[Wally]

i know that all that stuff exist, and i still think its pointless :) the thought alone of sitting on the train and fiddling with an ir keyboard and the psp makes me giggle =P

Fair statement :) however if someone was emulating say Dos or Mac OS. a keyboard would make it a fully fledged computer.

Why cant people just wait until USBhostfs has been figured out (if ever) and perhaps use a USB IR port. I mean its an option.

on top of that, a tv-out was THE feature i was missing from day one :=)

Same here =), it will be like a dream come true. I can see everyone having HUGE extensions off their TV AV ports for this rather than using a keyboard.

Wally

[groepaz]

Fair statement :) however if someone was emulating say Dos or Mac OS. a keyboard would make it a fully fledged computer.

a fully fledged computer with roughly the performance of a game'n'watch, yes =)

[Gizmo]

Since there's no remote fo rthe PSP slim, it looks like they've removed
the serial port as well :(

No, don't worry. There are new pins on the PSP Slim connector (for tv-out), making the old remote control incompatible. So for the PSP Slim there is a new re-designed remote with the modified connector.

I was missing the TV-out port too, ever since they presented the original PSP (and this single feature was unfortunately cut - compared to the unofficial specification at that time).

Didn't Sony remove the IR port from the PS2 as well ?

[J.F.]

Since there's no remote fo rthe PSP slim, it looks like they've removed
the serial port as well :(

No, don't worry. There are new pins on the PSP Slim connector (for tv-out), making the old remote control incompatible. So for the PSP Slim there is a new re-designed remote with the modified connector.

I was missing the TV-out port too, ever since they presented the original PSP (and this single feature was unfortunately cut - compared to the unofficial specification at that time).

Didn't Sony remove the IR port from the PS2 as well ?

TV out is nice, but I'm really gonna miss the IRDA. Oh well, I'll use my fat PSP for IRDA stuff, and the slim for media stuff. :)

The PS2 didn't have an IR port. Maybe you're thinking of the digital optical audio output. I use that on my PS2 - the sound is AWESOME. I think that's what they removed (beside iLink) from the slim PS2.

[Art]

Didn't Sony remove the IR port from the PS2 as well ?

I think it was a general statement.
They remove anything that costs money and isn't paying off.
Like the original Playstation RCA connectors, followed by the parallel port.

[Gizmo]

Here is my idea of a resource hungry user input:
A small mirror attached to the Go Cam so that the camera can look towards the screen and monitor movements of a stick (or a printed pattern attached to the forefinger using a ring). So it would probably require some heavy image processing making it unusable for most applications. But it might be fast and precise enough for an on-screen-keyboard. Another problem might be if the finger tipping can be recognized precise enough.

Keyboard input:
The best input method would probably be voice recognition. To simplify it a special independent keyboard that produces different (annoying) tones when buttons are pressed could be used. (Sound could be recorded an analyzed by Go Cam or Talkman microphone.)

I think pikey would be an excellent test environment for such ideas (Thanks Fanjita).

[groepaz]

Keyboard input:
The best input method would probably be voice recognition.

totally. very useful on the train :) *giggles again*

[jimparis]

Since there's no remote fo rthe PSP slim, it looks like they've removed
the serial port as well :(

The slim still has a remote. Look at page 9 of the user manual:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/form ... or_pdf=pdf
edit: oh, Gizmo already mentioned it

[Art]

^^^ Thanks, I thought I heard that it didn't.. or maybe it doesn't come with
the retail package.. as long as the serial port is there it's a releif if the
firmware is exploited (the difference that would decide me buying one).

Keyboard input:
The best input method would probably be voice recognition. To simplify it a special independent keyboard that produces different (annoying) tones when buttons are pressed could be used. (Sound could be recorded an analyzed by Go Cam or Talkman microphone.)

Already thought of a DTMF keypad in case it came to that! :D
Art.

[adrahil]

The serial port has changed quite a bit from the pictures I saw.... It seems to have 12 pins now.

[J.F.]

The serial port has changed quite a bit from the pictures I saw.... It seems to have 12 pins now.

Yes, they added component and composite video out lines, and maybe a video ground line.

[Art]

Video out is nice. How easy it would be to show off your wares on YouTube :)

If 3 conductors at the 3.5mm socket and 12 at the special connector is
correct then there's still one cunductor unaccounted for.

Audio left
Audio right
Audio Gnd
Audio In/Microphone

Video Composite Out
Video Y
Video Cb
Video Cr
Video Gnd

Serial Tx
Serial Rx
Digital Gnd

Remote Power + 2.5 Volts
Wakeup (Green wire on original PSP)

We will never find out officialy, so I guess it's all to be discovered the harder way.

BTW that green wire is interesting. It could have been useful,
but it only wakes the PSP if it was put in standby in the XMB.
Art.

[edepot]

I hope they didn't hardwire the frequency of the TV-out on the
slim PSP. If not, maybe you can code a custom ipx to output a higher pixel line count than
272p without resorting to upconversion of pixel lines. But that is wishful thinking,
I am not sure, but maybe if you lower the framerate and resort to duplicate frames
you can get 1920x1080p? Useful for editing and coding programs and maybe soduko and
simple tetris games. Aww, maybe PSP3 is the answer. Or a shrunken PS3P. Hope
Sony gets a good techie visionary before others swallow them up. They may end up
playing catch up if they don't get their act together. I mean, think about it,
they offer TV-out but no over the air tuner, nor am-fm tuner. I hope the new
slim-psp has a better usb port to support client USB devices, it may save them
the trouble of making each possible usb client device host-able. Even better make it
able to support connecting multiple usb devices like how it is supposed to work in
the real world.

That 4.3" touch screen was made especially for the PSP, so I think
this should be the de-facto one for the slim and fat PSP for touch screen use.
Now if only there are simple instructions to get it working (with code and
attach instructions). I believe this should take off as soon as someone
posts a youtube video with a homebrew game using it. Maybe make a simple
nds zelda clone showing the possibilities on the PSP. Can you believe that
the NDS ALREADY has a sixaxis homebrew support via that slot 2 expansion?
I think Sony goofed with that proprietary usb port on the fat usb port.
It is too difficult making a proprietary host-able usb client device.
Hope someone gets the touchscreen on the PSP soon, or people may start jumping
ship to the NDS. It won't be as popular as the PSP for now because of the
low processor abilities but you can't be sure of that given that the NDS is
selling more than twice the number of PSPs each month. If the NDS had better
processors and more main memory, and better external display connections,
I think they could have pulled it off as the next PC replacement, but they
are a game company first, so they will be behind the times in this area most
likely for a long time. Can you imagine what would happen to the PC if the NDS has a top screen the size of the PSP and the slot 1 is actually a micro SD or memory stick slot (or multiple of them) with a tv-out, supporting large displays with corresponding frequencies...


-----------------

I don't know how useful these links are for PSP folks, but I was doing a
comparison between the NDS and the PSP and the possibility of homebrew on it.
Too bad I won't be able to code for a while, so I will dump some of my stuff here
for others who are interested, and maybe pick up on it later (if ever).

I found out that using an R4 cartridge, you plug in a MicroDS inside of it to
store all the games you have made. You do not need to mod your NDS, as the cartridge
acts just like a real NDS cartridge. You should target the R4 as that has about 90%
market penetration for the NDS. Since there are many different cartridge makers
(besides R4), they came up with DLDI. You basically program your program once, and
using DLDI software, it will patch the addresses to the correct address so you
need not manually recompile your program to match how each cartridge
handles file access to the MicroDS (or whatever type of memory stick
format they use).

So basically, you can usually store about 30+ large homebrew programs
(32MB to 128MB) on a cheap 2GB MicroSD on average. You can code to a maximum
256MB per program, using 4MB main memory naked, or an extra 32MB with a 3-in-1 slot 2
expansion cartridge. However, the market penetration for the memory expansion is
so so, so you can't expect a cartridge brand everyone is using like the R4.
The NDS has wi-fi support, so multiplayer is possible. Converting
analog nub from PSP to touch screen is not difficult using x and y source destination
delta. Useful nor not, the NDS does have a linux solution requiring the
32MB expansion, should work somewhat like the uclinux for the PSP.
The native move player format is called DPG and resembles mpeg and is
supported by the "moonshell" (the default os for R4).

Some links:

The MicroSD to MS Pro Duo adapter:
http://www.google.com/products?q=micros ... &scoring=p

NDS Browser (and image of the Slot 2 Memory expansion cartridge)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS_Browser

NDS Mouse (The slider)
I can't believe the NDS has a TV tuner before the PSP did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS_accessories

The R4 hardware
http://www.r4ds.cn/

The R4 software
http://www.r4ds.cn/download/r4_v1.11_kernel.html

Patching English R4 software to work with Chinese R4 cartridge (less cost).
http://ehsia.com/nintendo-ds/howto/r4-chinese-english

DLDI stuff
http://dldi.drunkencoders.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

NDS Homebrew downloader
http://www.utorrent.com/

NDS Homebrew repository
http://www.mininova.org/

NDS DPG (movie player)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDs-mPeG

[crazyc]

The MicroSD to MS Pro Duo adapter:
http://www.google.com/products?q=micros ... &scoring=p

This looks iffy. They look like SD to MicroSD adapters. Do you have or know anyone who has used one?

[Wally]

Fair statement :) however if someone was emulating say Dos or Mac OS. a keyboard would make it a fully fledged computer.

a fully fledged computer with roughly the performance of a game'n'watch, yes =)

Heh you havent tried them have you -_- :P

They work alright :)

[Art]

I will be soon enough and will let everybody know.
I'm cashed up tomorow, so will order straight away
as long as microSD is significantly cheaper than ProDuo.

[Gizmo]

Just 3 things to consider with adapters in general: Transfer rates, supported storage sizes and the amount of battery power consumed by the adapter itself.

[J.F.]

as long as microSD is significantly cheaper than ProDuo.

It's not quite half price at NewEgg - $28 (with S&H) vs $43 (with S&H) for 2GB. MicroSD only goes to 2GB (at least, that's the biggest NewEgg has).

[Art]

Just 3 things to consider with adapters in general: Transfer rates, supported storage sizes and the amount of battery power consumed by the adapter itself.

I thought they were just wired straight through, so all of that would be determined by
the characteristics of the SD card?

In the first post we're talking 8Gb.

[Gizmo]

I thought they were just wired straight through, so all of that would be determined by the characteristics of the SD card?
In the first post we're talking 8Gb.

I'm pretty sure that Micro-SD uses a different protocol than Memory Stick Pro Duo. So it requires translation by a chip (and may in turn come with bandwidth limit which would result in a lower maximum transfer rate than the Micro-SD card actually has ans consume a bit of energy).

The different Memory Stick Pro support simple adapters (that are wired straight through) because they support the same compatible protocol (e.g. Memory Stick Pro Duo > Adapter > MemoryStick Pro). The Memory Stick Micro M2 even has some dedicated extra pins just for backward compatibility to Memory Stick Pro Duo via an adapter that attaches to those extra pins.