What is right and what is wrong?

[ooPo]

Let's have a discussion. Let's hammer out some rules.

We have ourselves a wonderful handheld piece of technology. It has many doors and windows and other weird places we can use to get inside. Some of them are lawful and some of them are not. Some of them may be lawful but may allow the local warez addicts to sumble in and call it their home.

So, what is our goal? What are we trying to avoid? What topics are off limits? Discuss.

[asmodi]

Everything that is inside the law should be OK I guess. As for warez, we all know how far from that we are (and hopefully will be untill the end :-)). I think it should be discussed when we get to the point where we see a possibility for piracy, thought by thought. A general rule against what should be seen as piracyable or not is hard, as everything we do can lead to that. Namco Game Sharing is something that can lead to piracy (not UMD, but the games that can be shared), and should be discussed before we try to "hack/crack" it.

I had a little more to write but I need to run to a damn date so I don't have time to write more. :/

Just my thoughts, so please do not flame me guys :)

[Awhite]

Stickying to homebrew executables and not replicating other software will be ok I guess. Also trying to avoid silly or so called "noob" posts. At least for the actual development forum. (Isn't there a warning system in this forum?)

Hope i helped.

Just a sidenote...
I might add, that some companies find the information gathered by the homebrew scene quite interesting and try to use it for their benefit (or ours too?)

[PspPet]

[no comment]

[ooPo]

We're only talking here, not setting rules yet. Its the confusion over these topics that we're trying to clear up. Suggestions on what specific action to take are premature and unsolicited at this time. Thanks anyway.

I'll put your vote down for 'follow the letter of the law'.

[PspPet]

[no comment]

[ooPo]

Can I edit threads to make people talk in knock-knock jokes? Would that be acceptable? :)

[MarioD]

censorship sux

[kry.sys]

censorship sux

Censorship "sucks" when information is withheld that benefits yourself.
That is not the case here at all.

What’s done here? I wouldn’t even call it censorship... If I see a piece of trash on the ground.. I throw it away.
every post that has been deleted or locked has had zero positive effect on this community. hell i think they should lock and delete more.

this community has made great progress in manipulating the ps2 without modding the hardware or leaking SDKs.

when this community succeeds with the psp how is it going to look when all we talk about is hacking and cracking and stealing. how does that make us look in legalities? if your answer is "who cares" then your in the wrong place.

----

p.s. Who’s there?

[Drakonite]

> We're only talking here, not setting rules yet.

Ok, then please stop locking on-topic threads, and deleting other people's posts that you may not agree with.

I'm close to giving up on this forum, if you don't want an open discussion, I won't post here.

The moderators here were carefully chosen because they have an understanding of the topics at hand and are able to handle issues in the best way for the community. They do not lock or delete threads simply because they don't agree with them. The fact that slanderous posts like this aren't immediately removed is a good example of that.

When you have as many posts as we do being divided up between moderators there will always be variances in the interpretation of rules when it comes to borderline subjects because every situation can be different. Every moderator here takes the discussion of whether or not to make a precident by intervening (or not intervening) on a borderline topic very seriously, and whether or not these decisions are correct are often discussed with other moderators before any action is taken.

The current situation leaves even more room for interpretation as there are no rules which give specifics of what should and should not be allowed so the moderators have to follow their best judgement on what does or does not follow the rules of this community.

Getting back on topic...

It's hard to pick out what should and should not be allowed at this point; there are far too many things which are unknown to understand the consequences of different topics. Other than being careful of topics which are obviously much more useful towards violating copyrights and other illegal activities it seems like something that would have to be developed and refined as things progress, and deal with topics on a case by case basis as neccisary until then...

Then again, I've been trying to avoid the PSP forums so perhaps there are more specifics to build rules from than I have been thinking.

[Guest]

What are the community values ? Those affect what should be on topic or not.

Several solid values I have seen over the years -

1. No warezing and warezing related topics.
a. backups discussion forbidden.
b. Ripping graphics and/or music out of games.
c. tools / techniques to allow warezing activities.
(gray area often because of the need to enable dev).
d. modchips == bad, unless no other way to do true dev.
e. hdloader == bad.

2. No topics related to circumventing Sony's DRMs on the PS2.
a. Figuring out implementation details of how the PS2 auths DVDs.
b. Avoid MagicGate crypto (I have seen people booted/banned out of #ps2dev for these topics)
c. see above on modchips and hdloader.

3. Keep a hard dev focus of the topics.
a. this is a focus on "enabling" tools that can be used to write apps
b. less focus on end-user apps themselves.
c. encourage people to go deep into the hardware and software.
d. bluntly advise people who are in over their heads on what they need to do if they want to be serious.

Do I got things right ? And are there any others ?

[blackdroid]

>
Ok, then please stop locking on-topic threads, and deleting other people's posts that you may not agree with.

I'm close to giving up on this forum, if you don't want an open discussion, I won't post here.

Enlighten me with threads that had valid information that has been deleted ( extremely few posts have been deleted, we lock first ), or locked. What you and several others dont seem to grasp is that we want to avoid the general flood of "cry wolf" episodes, we managed quite well without them in the past and want to do so in the future.

Wether you will give up on the forums or not doesnt bother me at all, that is your choice.

Locking of subjects not in lieu with development for ps2 or psp will continue, that is why we have moderators, and this is also why we dont have a thousand different forum indexes like other sites. We concentrate on development, making code, running it. This is not for the faint-hearted apparently, and if so stay away go talk on other forums, cause thats what most people seem to do, talk!

[Neil Stevens]

What's the imperative for ps2dev? Not offending Sony, or getting code running on the hardware?

If the former is more important, then probably the whole PSP section should be shut down until *others* circumvent Sony's protections and get their own code running. At that time, everyone else can rush through that breach and start doing development without doing anything that Sony would find threatening (since it's copying their licensors games that threatens them, not writing little asteroids demos).

If the latter is more important, then ask yourself this: what are you going to do if there's no way to run code on the thing without finding some flaw in the encryption protocols Sony is using?

[blackdroid]

Im quite sure everyone has alread asked himself that question, is encryption "cracking" the only way or not, this is way too early to know. so abit moot.

ps2dev has always been to stay clear from breaching any copyright, thing is that the whole idea of ps2dev is software based ( apart from sio id say) and apart from ps2ind we have not contributed any means to run code(yes im skipping reload here) on an umodded ps2, that being said hw modding your console is legal in most countries, and personally I do not have a grudge against using a hw-mod in order to run your own code, ofcourse(unfortunately) these mods (for ps2) makes it perfectly possible to run copyrighted material that you have not purchased.

So should circumventing the encryption be discussed or not, well again its legal in some countries, my 2 euro cents lands in the gray area on this one.However I dont think circumventing the encryption will be the way to reach the goal.

[Guest]

What's the imperative for ps2dev? Not offending Sony, or getting code running on the hardware?

Finding the right balance between the two.

[mrbrown]

What's the imperative for ps2dev? Not offending Sony, or getting code running on the hardware?

Finding the right balance between the two.

Nonsense. How can you find a "balance" when you don't even know what to expect from Sony?

[Drakonite]

What's the imperative for ps2dev? Not offending Sony, or getting code running on the hardware?

Finding the right balance between the two.

Nonsense. How can you find a "balance" when you don't even know what to expect from Sony?

By using some common sense.

Last I checked I've never had an official contact from Sony come up to me privately and say "We'd appreciate it if you guys didn't talk about blah, or blah, but you can talk about blah all you want. To show our graditude here is blah which should help you out." nor do I get the feeling it's going to happen.
So until the unlikely chance of that happening comes to pass, I guess common sense will just have to do.

[Guest]

Nonsense. How can you find a "balance" when you don't even know what to expect from Sony?

And what has PS2DEV been doing, historically, all along ? And without any involvement from Sony ? You wrote a few long relevant messages on this topic just recently, if I remember correct.

The point is, there is no involvement from Sony in PS2DEV, so balance is whatever the "usual suspects" that are highly involved here come up with amongst themselves, I am guessing. But this is my humble opinion as just another mod. :)

[PspPet]

[no comment]

[mrbrown]

And what has PS2DEV been doing, historically, all along ? And without any involvement from Sony ? You wrote a few long relevant messages on this topic just recently, if I remember correct.

The point is, there is no involvement from Sony in PS2DEV, so balance is whatever the "usual suspects" that are highly involved here come up with amongst themselves, I am guessing. But this is my humble opinion as just another mod. :)

Ugh. If you want Sony's notion of balance or whatever, then go read the rules and forum posts on playstation2-linux.com. Everything they expect is outlined on that site.

This ps2dev sad victim crap is really getting nauseating. Sony does homebrew, but they don't do it like ps2dev does it. They do it using the PS2 Linux Kit. Get over it. And if you're going to actually produce something besides all of these pointless and longwinded rants, please, don't let that stop you.

I seriously have about given up on ps2dev - a lot of you guys whine, troll, or whatever, but you don't actually write any code or provide any useful information or encouragement to beginners. playstation2-linux.com does do that and much more.

And guess what? It's officially supported by Sony.

I'm starting to feel like a jackass for ever going to bat for "this side" so long ago.

[mc]

I seriously have about given up on ps2dev - a lot of you guys whine, troll, or whatever, but you don't actually write any code or provide any useful information or encouragement to beginners. playstation2-linux.com does do that and much more.

And guess what? It's officially supported by Sony.

It seems unlikely that Sony would provide/support anything like it for the PSP though. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong! :-)

[ooPo]

psppet:

For what its worth, I rarely - if ever - lock a post. I have long taken a light-handed approach to these forums. A few words usually go a lot further than strict conversation control. Don't go waltzing in here and think you know the entire social dynamic that lead to whatever actions you feel slighted you.

In fact, it wasn't even me who locked the encyption thread.

Get your facts straight and you'll see it makes more sense here.

And if we were truly out to get you, you'd be already gone. :) At least give us credit for hearing you out and trying to at least listen in case we may have done wrong.

edit: The thread was moved specifically to offtopic because I really couldn't find anywhere else it fit. There was no insult intended - I felt it was a valid conversation that deserved to continue, but not at the expense of an already ongoing conversation. Offtopic seemed to be a good place to throw it. *shrug*

[ooPo]

mrbrown:

I don't think you're being fair to the majority of people who attach themselves to the name 'ps2dev'. The ps2linux community has official backing and a larger population - they have a bigger pool of people with enough patience to help new people. They have people who can give the official YES or NO stamps to conversation topics. They also bring the official stamp of being sanctioned by Sony - that can have a great psychological effect, especially when dealing with a 'rival' dev community. God is on their side, so they must be right... right? That may explain some of the friction.

Still, most of us do try to help those who truly want help. We still try to steer away topics deemed bad by laws or morality. We sometimes ask Sony for more support, even if it falls on deaf ears most of the time. And sometimes we even actually produce something useful, like code. Sure, sometimes a rant comes against someone who asked something they shouldn't, but generally it was deserved. Or it'll be petty enough to pass and everyone will move past it. Hey, I even remember getting a few lashings from you back when I first joined up. You're not innocent yourself, mister.

Anyway, stop being so hard on us here while you're gone... you're the one who's changed, not us. How's life on the other side, anyway? I can't imagine life on the official dev boards is much different.

[M2]

... no comments at this point, but I just wanted to express my opinion about how I'm glad ooPo started this thread. great idea. some of you know where my day job is, and that's cool... and it's nice to see the growth in the last few days ;)

enjoi!

[PspPet]

[no comment]
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weak wrote:
> ...what is tolerable and what is not. let the mods decide, they are the ones who run this board...

Ok, let them thrash it out. I've retracted any negative comments I've said about the policies.

[ooPo]

I think I know what you're missing.

On the main page, there's a link on the right side called 'View posts since last visit'. It is useful for finding ongoing conversations. A lot easier than visiting each forum separately, at least.

If you don't use it, a moved thread can easily become lost.

[mrbrown]

gorim:

I apologize for flying off the handle earlier. I misread your post and bunched it with the stuff that's been discussed in the off-topic thread. I still believe there's been a bit of whining lately about Sony's stance or lack of (as perceived by some) on homebrew. And I still believe folks would be a bit better off doing something as opposed to what's been going on lately.

[PSPGalaxy]

What is the moderator guidance of threads about MP4 and the Web Browser?

[blackdroid]

personally mp4 tags and web browser is not at all dev related. something that would maybe fall under general discussion, but since that one was flooded with even more useless posts and was locked.

[weak]

imho it's pretty hard to draw the lines. non of us is a lawyer so we won't be able to say what is illegal and what is not. it's almost the same with development talk. who wants to draw the line?

so someone will have to mak a decission what is tolerable and what is not. let the mods decide, they are the ones who run this board...

personally i don'tcare what anybody wants to talk about. i just don't want to have to read the same odd stuff again and again.
so just delete the double/unnecessary topics and the forum will be clean to read and still keep the atmosphere of an open community.
and ofcourse things will get better when the launch madness has settled (europe still to come. so don't expect that to be anytime soon :)