Need to be fired up

MadMonkee · Post by **MadMonkee** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:58 pm

Hellow;

I've been programming for a software company with .NET for 2 years, and I am really eager to write some PSP code :)) But all I have ever used is Visual Studio, and I just double click the program and start coding. How do I setup PSP? Is there a PSP Visual Studio or something you guys wrote?

Also just an additional question;

Is it the same as coding for ps2? Because I did notice the ELF to PBP converting tool. Not that I am familiar with ps2 coding anyway. I just remember the PS2 emulator executed files being ELF files.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:49 am

Well, the bigggest difficulty you will have isn't coding so much as learning how to use tools. Only experiencing Visual-anything leaves you at a disadvantage there.

I recommend learning about using command-line compilation via gcc and Make, while writing your code in a bare-bones editor rather than the IDE. Might take some getting used to, but thats how uber-coding-gods do it. ;)

ector · Post by **ector** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:46 am

And the über-über coding gods know how to use gcc from within Visual Studio :)

Saotome · Post by **Saotome** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:56 am

ector wrote:And the über-über coding gods know how to use gcc from within Visual Studio :)

No, we don't need to compile - we write our ELF-files directly in a hex editor ;D

MadMonkee · Post by **MadMonkee** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:01 pm

Would it be so bad to help a fellow coder get started? I'll write for the community aswell, 1 more help doesn't really hurt anyone. Cmon, help a brother out ;)

PacManFan · Post by **PacManFan** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:07 pm

download and install Cygwin
get winrar

Get yourself oopo 's psp toolchain script

Get a bash primer somewhere on the web
here's a brief one
ls = dir
cd = cd
rm = del
/ = \

open up the bash shell from cygwin

run the configure script by going to the right directoryand typing ./configure

sit back and relax for 1 hour

get the psp sdk from this site
./configure

build examples

start coding some great psp apps..

TheRain · Post by **TheRain** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:25 pm

Maybe it's early for this, but a sticky on dev tools and getting started might be helpful- there have been tons of questions about getting started from the more casual programmers of late. At the same time, I think there are a lot of people looking to start coding who don't really understand the status of what hardware functions have been figured out to the level that the more casual programmers can use them. Maybe there could be a sticky about that and something to help them understand what work is being done and must be done to get those hardware functions documented. I would consider myself a more casual programmer, that's why I'm saying this... but I've been following this forum since day 1, so I at least have some understanding of what's going on.

biermana · Post by **biermana** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:56 am

I'm a.NET developer myself - I can tell you that you'll never be more productive than when using an IDE like Whidbey (VS2005). When you work in IT, you don't have the luxury of handling things like an "uber code god" - particularly if you're a lead/architect in your organization and have to create repeatable processes and frameworks that the "lesser" coders can follow and utilize. The demand to be productive exceeds the need to be "uber guy". But enough diatribe.

I guess the question is, do we want to feed the egos of uber code gods, or establish a development environment that allows more and more developers (e.g. casual developers) to carry the maturity of PSP homebrew foward?

Pride of the code gods aside, a real IDE will do great things for PSP homebrew. "Official PSP developers" don't seem to have much qualms with using Codewarrior.

One possibility is Bloodshed's Dev-C++ IDE. See this post:
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=2456

Post by **ooPo** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:22 am

Please spare us the gilded rant and boil it down to the real issue.

You want an IDE.

By all means, either make one or find one that will work for you already.

Then share.

Don't give us a speech about how your little corner of the IT world is ruled by visual studio. All you're doing is showing just how small your sphere of experience really is.

biermana · Post by **biermana** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:30 am

Why are the admins on this forum so thin-skinned and sensitive?

Do you guys need to get laid/drunk or something? My experience is not limited to Visual Studio by any means - I've been coding for 20+ years.

In this and other threads, I've frequently seen this forum's admins make things "personal" for no good reason other than to "show off". Are you really that young, or just emotionally under developed? Step away from the keyboard and practice your social skills.

I'll stop the guilded rant now, because you probably just delete it and ban me anyway.

Please send me your IM, and I'll make sure clear all my posts with you first before submitting them - censorship Orwellian stye, Mr. Bossman.

Post by **ooPo** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:53 am

You throw around opinions like they're messages from royalty and wonder why offense may be taken. Then you defend yourself by telling them they need to get laid or drunk. Next you follow up with an informal statistical analysis of the forums. Finally, you play the martyr because you'll surely be banned. Who here has the social skills? Hmm...

Be a bit more open-minded. You've stepped into our playground and should really sit down and watch the game before you step in and tell everyone how to play.

We take it personally because this is what we choose to do with our spare time. Until you start paying, don't start playing the role of IT manager.

biermana · Post by **biermana** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:52 am

Ok ooPo.

Sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.

No criticism was intended.. this stuff you guys are working on looks fun and exciting - much more than the IT stuff I've being doing for the last several years.

I'll try to "pay" by contributing to the codebase.

Tony

Post by **ooPo** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:56 am

Trying is good enough for me.

Welcome to pspdev. :)

ninjadave · Post by **ninjadave** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:58 pm

You can set up M$ Visual Studio .net with the GNU compiler if you want, but it is a pain in the ass, and a bit tricky. Please mail me and I will try to help, but I don't want to post stuff here till it's ironed out.

I come from using vi/vim & command line school. I love it, you know exactly what is going on all the time, and have complete control.
Now I have to work with Windowz and .net to earn money to live. It sucks!
What's miles worse though, is that PSP coding is the first thing that's got me back to doing it 1337, and I have trouble doing what I consider basic command line stuff now! I realise now how much I rely on M$ VS to support me doing stuff.

I am now dusting off my MicroATX system I have hidden in my draws at work, installed Linux, and getting the toolchain installed. From here on in, I'm going old-school ;)

Edit: added...

Also, and IDE on it's own is not the whole solution. There are also tools needed to convert and pack the files that are made, the libraries that go with them, etc, etc, etc... Using the command line will help understanding of all these steps, and the most important aspect of homebrew is knowing exactly what is going on all the way through.
If you set up an IDE to do all of this for you you can forget how a part works, and when it comes to fixing it, you don't stand much of a chance. You also need to know an awful lot about all the tools used to get the IDE configured right... I would only be able to gelp getting the compiler in there, and set up a basic config for it. I may be able to get some converters stuck on the end, and a basic config. But there will always be issues with the exact config used and this will cause issues that wouldn't easily be fixed.

The two big advantages of using an IDE are code is coloured in with the ability to auto-finish words. This can be replicated with ease in a text editor designed for coding, like emacs (big and nasty as it is). The other use of IDEs is to aid debugging, but this isn't particularly easy when the code is running on another machine.

So, I'm not bothering with an IDE, it's just not worth the hassle to me. I'll just use a decent text editor, take a deep breath and learn the tool chain inside out from the command line, and I think I'll find that an IDE would just get in the way.

Grover Again · Post by **Grover Again** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:37 am

Im sorry but this is a bit much isnt it? Much like many posts here being displayed by the 'elite' of this board, you leave very little to be desired to help inspire people to help produce solutions, other than your own?

I am also of the opinion of biermana, and much of my colleagues in the game industry are also - this is why we use VS for PS2, GC, Xbox, and pretty much every other platform. Yes Metroworks is available, but everyone I have worked with over the last 7 yrs has agreed that MS have the best code development tools around - Yes, like biermana I have been coding on unix flavours for 20 odd years also.. from SunOS, Linux's.. through to my last VR Centre project at SGI..

What is odd though, is that VS is used by the _high_ majority of all developers. Belittling biermana with comments like

Don't give us a speech about how your little corner of the IT world is ruled by visual studio. All you're doing is showing just how small your sphere of experience really is.

shows your inexperience in the real world. There is a practical use for everything.. emacs is used where its necessary (its the ruler of SGI dev thats for certain).. but devstudio is used on Windows PC's almost generically.. and its now a free product (Visual Studio 2003 Toolkit) and you can integrate pretty much any development target into it - I am building a MS Wizard just for this purpose to help people like beirmana out).

Project management wise, you cant compare make and devstudio, make is just one of those evil dendancy hell type tools. Ant is much better, but again still a nightmare on anything slightly large.

I dont think it necessary to chastise someone because they have a good idea(i guess the elite dont percieve it as one though), to help the majority of users that are trying to get involved to help you guys? Or do you really want help at all? It really isnt just this thread either.. the elitist attitude here is really quite oppressive.. especially for newcomers.. but I will concede that, if that is your goal.. maybe it would be an idea not to run a public forum, if you only want experienced people involved? Although again, thats your choice - consider this an expression of opinion.

Personally I'd like to see as many ppl involved in PSP development as possible. As the OSS community has shown, many hands make light work..

Sorry for taking up threadspace, but I hope you see these words as just a note of caution, and maybe lighten up on people whom are trying to just help - or not. I dont want to incur the wrath of the forum mods.

crazyc · Post by **crazyc** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:13 am

Much like many posts here being displayed by the 'elite' of this board, you leave very little to be desired to help inspire people to help produce solutions, other than your own?

Bullshit. Nobody except Guest looked down on the idea of using Visual Studio until biermana came and built an eltist strawman. Even then, oopo just told him not to be so condecending toward those who might not want to use it.

Post by **ooPo** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:29 am

I have no problems with people using whatever tools they want.

I have a problem with people stepping in to tell us an IDE is the only way to develop and then demand that we provide one.

There is certainly demand for some sort of VS integration - its too bad nobody who wants it is willing to step up and provide it.

Until then, the issue is just spinning wheels.

Grover Again · Post by **Grover Again** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:56 am

Look, please dont take offense.

Just read the thread - with comments like:

And the über-über coding gods know how to use gcc from within Visual Studio :)

and not answering questions (if there is no solution for VS then this shouldnt have been said?).. you will get comments that then ask about the attitudes? Like I said lighten up.. its far too oppressive here for people that want to use non Linux tools.. and uber god quotes dont help with your image as elitist and unwilling to help VS people..

ector · Post by **ector** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:17 am

Grover Again wrote: Just read the thread - with comments like:
And the über-über coding gods know how to use gcc from within Visual Studio :)

That was just a joke, see the smiley?

Anyhow it's not very difficult to use VS, most basic solution is to just use it as a project manager and editor, and still do your running of "Make" from a console window. Anyone using VS should be able to figure out how to do that :)

If you want more glitz you can start a "Makefile" project in VS and set up some paths, and as a result you will be able to hit Build directly from VS and get your compiler output in the output window at the bottom.

Grover Again · Post by **Grover Again** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:36 am

Yeah. The makefile wizard is a good option, but I guess people are looking for a project wizard - since most platforms I have worked on have had such wizards and they make life very nice.

Once Im done with the work Im on at the moment (going gold in 3 days.. and things are nuts).. I will post a Custom App wizard tool you can use to build a PSP custom app. This way things like startup.s, patching, and eboot.pbp building can be entirely automated and added to the project creation.

I really dont want to stir any grumpiness up. I have also been approached by people asking about how to use VS and PSP (and other projects like GBA).. just through the work I am doing.. itd be nice to get something out for these users simply because of the wide audience this encompasses..

I must admit, I am just old and tired of the anti-MS spray I see these days.. if I had my way we'd all be coding in AREXX.. on the Amy..

Post by **ooPo** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:43 am

You'll find the grumpiness disappears around the time more than talk is produced.

Grover Again · Post by **Grover Again** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:50 am

You see Oopo thats exactly what I am on about - was that comment necessary? I have contributed gear and free source code here before - no great tonnage.. but I have only been visiting here a couple of months.

I have also contributed alot elsewhere.. but you infer my words are pointless and false. To be honest that is why I stopped posting and removed my account before.

<edit> Why is it everyone here has to 'prove' themselves, or such to help others?

Also, btw.. people can build their own custom app wizard for PSP.. its not overly difficult. Head over to the MS doc site to get the info about making such a project tool.

Post by **ooPo** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:17 am

It was entirely necessary. Your comment mentioned not wanting to stir gumpiness up - I merely pointed out that people aren't grumpy when there's action to back up the words.

I did not infer your words are pointless and false. It was meant to encourage you to follow through with what you've said you'll do.

I don't care if 'anyone' can do it - I just want to see 'someone' do it.

Why is it everyone here has to 'prove' themselves, or such to help others?

These forums are a kind of meritocracy, that is why. There is far too much traffic here to sift out the well-meaning-but-no-time folk from the people who hang around because it makes them feel 'cool'. Having a few things accomplished can give you a bit of a boost, something people can remember. 'Oh yeah, he did so-and-so...'. Sure, it can suck if you're just starting out... but personally I really only require someone to at least try to help rather than sit back and talk about it. Others may require more... *shrug*

Regardless, I think you're capable of doing it and I'd like you to get around to it sometime so this IDE nonsense can go away. :)

Grover Again · Post by **Grover Again** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:31 am

To be honest I dont care about giving myself a boost or something people can remember.. personally I have spent the last 5 or more years on OSS helping people.. I dont want any stars or shiny BS for it.. Hell, Ive helped companies get started with entire game engines for free.. I want to help people to gain knowledge.. learn.. and get and do what they enjoy? Some of that involves talking.. chatting.. posting.. emailing.. or in more common terms communicating. I dont often post in forums (apart from our local indie one), since I'd usually be busy coding.. but I am always open for chatting, and assisting people (even some of your members here) that need help or just to talk about topics of interest.. beer.. psp.. monkeys...

I think alot of thought processes and knowledge sharing and even heated discussions allows for great breakthroughs, and is also a good way to generate motivation to get people producing - I think even Oopo, you do a substantial amount of 'sit back and talk about it'.. just going on post counts alone :) .. although maybe alot of that is trying to fend off nuggets like myself maybe? ..of course this is in combination with your large code contributions.

I'll attempt to bring something to help with the IDE thing in a few more days though... I have a few bits and pieces to sort... FreePlay.. and my work is soaking up time...

For people wanting to have a look themselves they can visit here and get an understanding of custom project wizards for .NET:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau ... ectwiz.asp
This is for C# but the VC project templates are similar.
And this is a link at the bottom of that page for building an app kit.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau ... ionKit.asp

The nice thing is that help pages, hints and code completion can be added to make the whole PSP dev experience pretty tidy.